By Zack Brown et al.
Submitted by DNB Staff - Dec. 5, 2012
[The following discussion was originally posted on LabanTalk.]
From Zack Brown, October 20, 2012
Hi folks,
I'm curious if certain crosses of axes are in general use.
These would be:
The Focal Point Cross, from 'Spatial Variations' p. 140-141
The Path Movement Cross, from 'Spatial Variations', p.
144-145
The Path Step Cross, from 'Spatial Variations', p. 144-145
The Split Body Cross, from 'Floorwork, Basic Acrobatics', p.
24-25, 58-59
The Body Split Body Cross, from 'Floorwork, Basic
Acrobatics', p. 58-59
The Deviation From Path Cross, from 'Spatial Variations', p.
30-31
Are these actually used in scores? Are they generally well
understood?
Be well,
Zack
From Janos Fugedi, October 21, 2012
Hi Zack,
Your question is great, I would like to know the result. What might foreshadow a low number is, that Ann Hutchinson Guest is usually far ahead in analysis and its representation compared to the general use of notation tools. Anyway I find the solutions you asked about brilliant, all introducing (perhaps not too simple) conventions to make notation simple. Once the convention is interiorized, recognition of notation is just as simple. Besides the iconic device is absolutely logical (a skill of Ann I admired all the times).
I have never used any of the keys you were asking about. I generally notate solo, sometimes couple traditional dances which usually don't need group notation or the separation of reference for the upper and lower section of the body.
All the best
Janos Fugedi
(P.S, just in brackets: you are absolutely right, all on the list should know, what 'Spatial Variations' and 'Floorwork, Basic Acrobatics' stand for, still, a more precise bibliographical reference might help those who happen to do not. Another, I think the term "Body Split Body Cross" is not in the book, and I am not sure, this would be the best for it, because the repeated word "Body" might raise confusion. The best would be to ask Ann to identify the sign.)
From Zack Brown, October 28, 2012
Hi folks,
I'm sending out a 2nd call on this. So far only János has replied, to say he's never used any of those crosses, but that he does find them significant. Has anyone else ever used them, or at least studied their usage? Does anyone else feel that these crosses are important or significant?
János mentioned I should include better bibliographic references for the books I mentioned in my post. Here they are:
Guest, Ann Hutchinson, and Joujke Kolff. Spatial Variations (Advanced Labanotation Series Vol 9). London: Dance, 2002.
Guest, Ann Hutchinson, and Joukje Kolff. Floorwork, Basic Acrobatics (Advanced Labanotation Series Vol 6). Alton, Hampshire [England]:
Dance, 2003.
Be well,
Zack
From Jeffrey-Scott Longstaff, October 28, 2012
Hi Zack
I'm not really a Labanotator - I mean I've only
notated short sequences, never a full dance or made a score or anything. --
However I might consider myself more of a movement researcher -- For just the
research and analysis part of it, I think all the various crosses of axes are
useful - just because they offer detailed methods of analysis - they give a
language that allows discussions about fine distinctions or spatial
orientation.
The only example that comes to mind right now
regards human spatial perception (which is intimately associated with body
movement). Some basic questions of human body-spatial orientation and
awareness consider some of the concepts defined in the various crosses of axis,
the simplest question perhaps being “which way is up?” – Spatial orientation
research has probed this question when people are oriented at various angles,
and in various conditions, .... just in efforts to learn about how the mind and
body interact in the perception and conception of space.
These cross of axes can provide detailed methods
of analysis for fine distinctions about how people might perceive space under
various conditions (eg. while standing upright, while spinning, while doing
several physical tasks simultaneously, hanging upside down, if the head
is at different orientation than the rest of the body). Cognitive
psychology and motor-control mostly has developed their own terminology for
these types of spatial-axes, but the ones developed within Labanotation, I
believe, are identical to others (though using different terms) and also, I
believe, can offer a greater degrees of detail and differentiation to a
systematic analysis of human spatial orientation.
As an extension of this, I would believe that
the various crosses of axes can offer creative tools for movement manipulation
(creating symmetry transformations – relative to different crosses of axis -
in arts)
In both cases (science and the arts) I’m sure
these concepts of spatial orientation (relative to spatial axes) ARE being
used, but I don’t know if the Labanotation concepts are used very often, or if
similar concepts using comparable terms have been developed separately in
separate fields.
So, personally, I find them valuable as
analytical tools to understand human spatial orientation, though I can’t speak
for their practical application in Labanotation scores.
Oh! I should add (to answer your question)
– I definitely did use them in my PhD research about Laban’s Choreutics, and I
believe I understand them all. (however I can’t recall the details right
now!)
Jeffrey
From P. W. Pulto, October 29, 2012
Hi Zack and List,
I'm using the Split Body Cross (somewhat modified) to notate the movements of a tango couple, as if it were an entity. The body of this entity is split in the woman's and man's legs...
Regards,
P.W. Pulto
From Ann Hutchinson Guest, November 4, 2012
Thank you, Zack, thank you Janos, I am finally having time to pick up on Zack's questions about keys.
Reading Zack's message it sounds as though someone got slap happy (drunk?) and started playing around inventing keys out of the blue. What is so interesting is to find out how the need for each key arose.
In some cases our standard descriptions just did not work. In others, the way the choreographer or teacher was explaining the movement had a different reference, one that did not exist in our notation system. For the movement in hand, that analysis made sense. Why could we not provide that possibility? I have wonderful memories of going into such examples with Maria Szentpal, one of these was the Split Body. That was the way people wanted to describe what was happening, why could we not provide that description? Did we have to force them into our standard analysis? Alas that Maria with her gifts is no longer with us, hers was an exceptional talent.
In Farandoles, or dances with lines of people dancing on improvised floor patterns around the available space (a field, perhaps?) what reference was there other than the direction of travel?
The Deviation from the Path (Spatial Variations, page 30, 31) is specifically related to gestures, to simplify the description - again derived from how people explain what they want. In many instances there is no need for such a description, and, indeed, unless one is writing sequences that beg for a special key, it is totally satisfactory to stick with the standard, well known descriptions.
The point of the Spatial Variations book was to cover the lesser known usages so that they are available to whoever might need them. I am still hoping to produce the last Advanced Labanotation book, No. 10, on similarly less known, subtle body variations.
I hope the above is helpful, please ask if you have further questions. And thank you, Janos, for your kind words.
Ann
From Zack Brown, November 4, 2012
Hi Ann,Thanks for your reply. The reason why I asked the original question is because I'm trying to understand all the different crosses, and those are the ones giving me the most difficulty. Maybe you could clear some of my questions up for me.
Focal Point Cross ('Spatial Variations', p. 140-141): This
key is a standard key, with a focal point symbol attached. As far as I can tell
from the text, the 'up' direction is identical to the 'up' direction for the
standard key; i.e. up is in the direction that opposes the force of gravity,
and down is the direction that follows the force of gravity. Meanwhile, the
'forward' direction points always to the focal point. My questions are these:
1) if the focal point rises up, relative to the stage, does
the forward direction tilt in order to allow the performer to keep it as their
focus?
2) And if so, what happens to the 90 degree relationship
between 'forward' and 'up'?
3) Or if the focal point is directly above the performer,
then where is the forward direction?
4) And if forward does not tilt to meet a rising focal
point, then how does the focal point remain the focus of the performer's
attention?
Path Movement Cross and Path Step Cross ('Spatial
Variations', p. 144-145): These two keys, from examples 43b and 43k, are relative
to a path being taken through the stage. The path step cross is used for
stepping only, while the path movement cross is identical, but is used for
gesture as well. My questions regarding these crosses are these:
1) Do they make the Line Of Dance cross obsolete, since they
appear to be a more general form of the same idea?
2) If the Path Step cross is only used for stepping, then
how are gestures handled when that cross is in effect? Do gestures revert to
the most recent cross, or to the Standard Cross?
Split Body Cross, and the 'Body' Split Body Cross
('Floorwork, Basic Acrobatics', p. 24-25, 58-59):
1) For the regular split body cross, is the 'up' direction
the same as the standard cross?
2) For both split body crosses (standard and body), does the
split body apply to gestures also, or does it only apply to stepping?
3) For both crosses, how are the two 'place' locations
identified?
Deviation From Path Cross (Spatial Variations, p.
30-31):
1) This key appears to only be used with pins, to indicate a
slight deviation. Is that correct?
2) It doesn't seem to ever be used outside the staff - it is
always attached either by a horizontal or vertical bow, or presumably as a
pre-sign. Is that correct?
3) It appears to only be used when following a path from a
location represented by one direction symbol, to a location represented by
another direction symbol; as opposed to a trace pattern. Is that correct?
4) It seems that the 'forward' direction is the direction
toward the location represented by the target direction symbol, wherever that
might be. It could even be at an angle relative to the floor. In that case, how
is the 'up' direction determined? If all I know is forward and back, there are
an infinite number of perpendicular lines emanating from that axis. How do I
know which of those is the 'up' direction?
I hope you are able to clear up these questions for me. I
don't see the answers anywhere in the books.
Be well,
Zack
From Zack Brown, November 4, 2012
On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 6:51 PM, Zack Brown
wrote:
<Path Movement Cross and Path Step Cross ('Spatial
Variations', p. 144-145): These two keys,
<from examples 43b
and 43k, are relative to a path being taken through the stage. The path step
<cross is used for stepping only, while the path movement
cross is identical, but is used for
<gesture as well. My questions regarding these crosses
are these:
<1) Do they make the Line Of Dance cross obsolete, since
they appear to be a more general form
<of the same idea?
<2) If the Path Step cross is only used for stepping,
then how are gestures handled when that
<cross is in effect? Do gestures revert to the most
recent cross, or to the Standard Cross?
I just remembered a 3rd question I had about the Path
Movement Cross:
3) For a curved (noncircular) path like the ones in the
examples 43a and 43m on page 145 of 'Spatial Variations', how exactly is the
forward direction determined? My sense is that if the performer were to perform
the next step of the dance going forward, that step would represent the best
straight cut through the curved path; and that the direction of that step
determines the forward direction for gestures as well. So, in the case where
the performer is not stepping but is only gesturing, would they calculate the
'forward' direction for gestures, by asking themselves where a forward step
would most appropriately go, and then use that direction as 'forward'? Or is
there a more straightforward way to calculate the forward direction for gesture?
What exactly is the 'line of the spine'? There's always a curve to the spine, so I'm assuming it means the line between the center of the pelvis and the center of the neck. Is that right?
From Ann Hutchinson Guest, November 12, 2012
[Zack
Brown’s November 4 comments are in black, Ann Guest’s November 12 comments are in red.]
Here we go, Zack, I will try to reply by using red for my answers,
embedded in your questions. So many of the Labanotation usages derive
from situations where they were needed. It must be difficult to approach
them just from a theoretical standpoint. I find your questions a
challenge and enjoy trying to provide easy to follow answers. We do not
get enough people asking questions and, indeed, challenging what has been
established, so it is a good exercise, for which I thank you!
Let me know what is not clear.
Keep up your enquiring mind!
Ann
Hi
Ann,
Thanks
for your reply. The reason why I asked the original question is because I'm
trying to understand all the different crosses, and those are the ones giving
me the most difficulty. Maybe you could clear some of my questions up for me.
Focal
Point Cross ('Spatial Variations', p. 140-141): This key is a standard key,
with a focal point symbol attached. As far as I can tell from the text, the
'up' direction is identical to the 'up' direction for the standard key; i.e. up
is in the direction that opposes the force of gravity, and down is the
direction that follows the force of gravity. You can
take it as a rule that the line of gravity determines up and down unless the
Body Key is used, for that the line of the spine determines up and down. Meanwhile,
the 'forward' direction points always to the focal point. My questions are
these:
1)
if the focal point rises up, relative to the stage, does the forward direction
tilt in order to allow the performer to keep it as their focus? To my knowledge we have only dealt with situations where the
focal point was a static point. A moving point, as for instance the light
near the end of Balanchine's ballet Night Shadow, involved looking and
pointing at the moving light. This was handled with an addressing
indication, which in this case sufficed.
2)
And if so, what happens to the 90 degree relationship between 'forward' and
'up'?
3)
Or if the focal point is directly above the performer, then where is the
forward direction?
4)
And if forward does not tilt to meet a rising focal point, then how does the
focal point remain the focus of the performer's attention? These questions have not arisen.
Path
Movement Cross I did not recognize these names!
Movement Directions in Relation to the Path. But perhaps you are right
and we need a short term. and Path Step Cross Step Direction in Relation to the Path. Or:
Steps in Relation to the Direction of the Path. ('Spatial
Variations', p. 144-145): These two keys, from examples 43b and 43k, are
relative to a path being taken through the stage. I
would not refer to a stage here, rather to a dancing area, such as a village
square. The path step cross is used for stepping only, while the
path movement cross is identical, but is used for gesture as well. My questions
regarding these crosses are these:
1)
Do they make the Line Of Dance cross obsolete, since they appear to be a more
general form of the same idea? No, very
different, I'll answer this in a moment.
2)
If the Path Step cross is only used for stepping, then how are gestures handled
when that cross is in effect? Do gestures revert to the most recent cross, or
to the Standard Cross? Gestures will use the
Standard Cross, unless it is indicated that they follow the line of travel.
It could be that leg gestures should follow the path (in preparation for steps)
while the rest of the body does not. This would be indicated by the
symbol for both legs and the key of 43k mentioned above.
The so-called Ballroom Key, the Line of Dance (LoD), functions in a
special way, which is the outcome of the needs in traditional ballroom dancing,
such as the English, Alex Moore technique and style. Step direction is
taken from the Standard Cross. The LoD (also called the General Direction
of Progression (GDP) is needed to keep track of orientation in relation to the
room.
The governing direction of travel is always
counterclockwise. The path may be rectangular as it travels along the
walls of the room. It may also become more circular, especially with
experienced performers. The performers relate their front to the center
of the room and also to the walls. As the Line of Dance turns the corner
(at the end of one wall) this 1/4 turn left is indicated on the right of the
notation staff. This re-orientation affects the performer's Front.
Body gestures take direction and level from the Standard Cross.
Split
Body Cross, and the 'Body' Split Body Cross ('Floorwork, Basic Acrobatics', p.
24-25, 58-59):
1)
For the regular split body cross, is the 'up' direction the same as the
standard cross? Yes, the usual Standard Cross is
used.
2)
For both split body crosses (standard and body), does the split body apply to
gestures also, or does it only apply to stepping? Yes, it applies to gestures as well. For the Body-Split-Body Key all
gestures would follow the Body Key rules. The steps would follow the
Standard usage.
3)
For both crosses, how are the two 'place' locations identified? See p. 58, section 9.3.
Deviation
From Path Cross (Spatial Variations, p. 30-31):
1)
This key appears to only be used with pins, to indicate a slight deviation. Is
that correct? For gestures, pins show minor
deviations from the standard path. (See LN Textbook 2005, p.396, 397.)
Size of deviation can be shown when needed. When the line of the path is
in an intermediate direction, statement of the direction of the appropriate
deviation can be difficult, thus a key to change the reference to the path so
that the path can be seen as though it is horizontal, thus establishing
up and down in relation to it; this then allows all the other possible
directions for deviations to fall into place. Whew! Is that
clear?
2)
It doesn't seem to ever be used outside the staff - it is always attached
either by a horizontal or vertical bow, or presumably as a pre-sign. Is that
correct? It relates only to the individual
statement, not to the notation as a whole.
3)
It appears to only be used when following a path from a location represented by
one direction symbol, to a location represented by another direction symbol; as
opposed to a trace pattern. Is that correct? I
don't understand this question. The gestural path needs to be indicated
as starting at one point and ending at another.
4)
It seems that the 'forward' direction is the direction toward the location
represented by the target direction symbol, wherever that might be. It could
even be at an angle relative to the floor. In that case, how is the 'up'
direction determined? If all I know is forward and back, there are an infinite
number of perpendicular lines emanating from that axis. How do I know which of
those is the 'up' direction? I'm sorry, I can't
follow your para. 4).
I
hope you are able to clear up these questions for me. I don't see the answers
anywhere in the books.
Be
well,
Zack
From Zack Brown, November 13, 2012
[Zack
Brown’s November 4 comments are in black, Ann Hutchinson Guest’s November 12
comments are in red, Zack Brown’s November 13
comments are in blue.
Thanks for the reply, Ann, and the encouragement! I've included
some responses/questions below.
Be well,
Zack
Hi
Ann,
Thanks
for your reply. The reason why I asked the original question is because I'm
trying to understand all the different crosses, and those are the ones giving
me the most difficulty. Maybe you could clear some of my questions up for me.
Focal
Point Cross ('Spatial Variations', p. 140-141): This key is a standard key,
with a focal point symbol attached. As far as I can tell from the text, the
'up' direction is identical to the 'up' direction for the standard key; i.e. up
is in the direction that opposes the force of gravity, and down is the
direction that follows the force of gravity. You can
take it as a rule that the line of gravity determines up and down unless the
Body Key is used, for that the line of the spine determines up and down. Meanwhile,
the 'forward' direction points always to the focal point.
What exactly is the 'line of the spine'? There's always a curve to the spine, so I'm assuming it means the line between the center of the pelvis and the center of the neck. Is that right?
My
questions are these:
1)
if the focal point rises up, relative to the stage, does the forward direction
tilt in order to allow the performer to keep it as their focus? To my knowledge we have only dealt with situations where the
focal point was a static point. A moving point, as for instance the light
near the end of Balanchine's ballet Night Shadow, involved looking and
pointing at the moving light. This was handled with an addressing
indication, which in this case sufficed.
2)
And if so, what happens to the 90 degree relationship between 'forward' and
'up'?
3)
Or if the focal point is directly above the performer, then where is the
forward direction?
4)
And if forward does not tilt to meet a rising focal point, then how does the
focal point remain the focus of the performer's attention? These questions have not arisen.
Very interesting!
So, if I'm understanding you correctly, the focal point never
moves while it is remains the focus. If a moving prop is needed as a focus, a
horizontal 'addressing' bow is used.
Also, if I'm understanding you right, the focal point remains on
or near the ground, so that the 'forward' it defines in the focal point cross
of axes is always 90 degrees from the vertical line of gravity.
Are those two things safe to say?
Path
Movement Cross I did not recognize these names!
Movement Directions in Relation to the Path. But perhaps you are right
and we need a short term. and Path
Step Cross Step Direction in Relation to the
Path. Or: Steps in Relation to the Direction of the Path. ('Spatial
Variations', p. 144-145): These two keys, from examples 43b and 43k, are
relative to a path being taken through the stage. I
would not refer to a stage here, rather to a dancing area, such
'Dancing area' seems like a better term. Is it always the case
with the two 'path' crosses, that the paths they relate to will be shown in a
floor plan on the right of the staff? Is the floor plan always required when
these crosses (and for that matter, the line of dance cross as well) are used?
The
path step cross is used for stepping only, while the path movement cross is
identical, but is used for gesture as well. My questions regarding these
crosses are these:
1)
Do they make the Line Of Dance cross obsolete, since they appear to be a more
general form of the same idea? No, very
different, I'll answer this in a moment.
2)
If the Path Step cross is only used for stepping, then how are gestures handled
when that cross is in effect? Do gestures revert to the most recent cross, or
to the Standard Cross? Gestures will use the
Standard Cross, unless it is indicated that they follow the line of
travel. It could be that leg gestures should follow the path (in preparation
for steps) while the rest of the body does not. This would be indicated
by the symbol for both legs and the key of 43k mentioned above.
So, if I wanted to indicate that leg gestures should follow the
path while the rest of the body did not, I'd use the legs body part symbol with
the key from 43k - but where would that indication go? In the glossary? Or
somewhere in or near the staff?
The so-called Ballroom Key, the Line of Dance (LoD), functions in a
special way, which is the outcome of the needs in traditional ballroom dancing,
such as the English, Alex Moore technique and style. Step direction is
taken from the Standard Cross. The LoD (also called the General Direction
of Progression (GDP) is needed to keep track of orientation in relation to the
room.
The governing direction of travel is always
counterclockwise. The path may be rectangular as it travels along the
walls of the room. It may also become more circular, especially with
experienced performers. The performers relate their front to the center
of the room and also to the walls. As the Line of Dance turns the corner
(at the end of one wall) this 1/4 turn left is indicated on the right of the
notation staff. This re-orientation affects the performer's Front.
Body gestures take direction and level from the Standard Cross.
Thanks for that explanation of LoD.
Split
Body Cross, and the 'Body' Split Body Cross ('Floorwork, Basic Acrobatics', p.
24-25, 58-59):
1)
For the regular split body cross, is the 'up' direction the same as the
standard cross? Yes, the usual Standard Cross is
used.
2)
For both split body crosses (standard and body), does the split body apply to
gestures also, or does it only apply to stepping? Yes, it applies to gestures as well. For the Body-Split-Body Key all
gestures would follow the Body Key rules. The steps would follow the
Standard usage.
3)
For both crosses, how are the two 'place' locations identified? See p. 58, section 9.3.
I see. That section defines the two place locations as
specifically related to the shoulders and pelvis. So there's no configuration
of supports that would warrant a different set of place locations for the split
body crosses.
Deviation
From Path Cross (Spatial Variations, p. 30-31):
1)
This key appears to only be used with pins, to indicate a slight deviation. Is
that correct? For gestures, pins show minor
deviations from the standard path. (See LN Textbook 2005, p.396, 397.)
Size of deviation can be shown when needed. When the line of the path is
in an intermediate direction, statement of the direction of the appropriate
deviation can be difficult, thus a key to change the reference to the path so
that the path can be seen as though it is horizontal, thus
establishing up and down in relation to it; this then allows all the other
possible directions for deviations to fall into place. Whew! Is
that clear?
Not yet. I don't see how the other directions fall into place.
What determines the direction of up/down? Or left/right?
If the path of my arm is from right middle to forward high, that
defines an arc through space, between those two directions. The path is also at
45 degrees relative to a flat floor. So, if I want to indicate a directional
deviation from that path, I would use the Deviation From Path cross with a pin,
to indicate the direction of deviation.
The question is, how do I interpret the pin, in order to find
out what direction to deviate towards? Clearly the pin indicates whether it
represents an upward, downward, left, right, or other direction. But that direction
will be relative to the system of directions defined by the Deviation from Path
cross of axes. So the real problem is to understand how that cross defines
up/down, front/back, and left/right.
Now, you've said that this cross changes the reference to the
path so that the path can be seen as though it is horizontal. So, if I
understand you correctly, that means that the starting point of the path
defines 'backwards', and the ending point of the path defines 'forwards'.
But that doesn't mean that 'up' is easy to determine. Once I
have forwards and backwards, there are an infinite number of right-angled
spokes that can come off of that line, all pointing in different directions.
Imagine the spokes of a bicycle wheel.
For the same reason that I need *both* up and front to define
left and right in other crosses, I need *both* front/back and left/right to
define 'up'. So far all I'm aware of is the forward/backward axis. Thus, 'up'
is still undefined, as are left and right.
2)
It doesn't seem to ever be used outside the staff - it is always attached
either by a horizontal or vertical bow, or presumably as a pre-sign. Is that
correct? It relates only to the individual
statement, not to the notation as a whole.
3)
It appears to only be used when following a path from a location represented by
one direction symbol, to a location represented by another direction symbol; as
opposed to a trace pattern. Is that correct? I
don't understand this question. The gestural path needs to be indicated
as starting at one point and ending at another.
The
question is: can this cross be used to modify the path of a trace pattern being
drawn in the air by a body part? Or is it restricted to only modifying the path
defined by two direction symbols?
4)
It seems that the 'forward' direction is the direction toward the location
represented by the target direction symbol, wherever that might be. It could
even be at an angle relative to the floor. In that case, how is the 'up'
direction determined? If all I know is forward and back, there are an infinite
number of perpendicular lines emanating from that axis. How do I know which of
those is the 'up' direction? I'm sorry, I can't
follow your para. 4).
I restated the question in response to your answer to my para 1
above. The problem is how to identify what 'up' means when this cross is in
effect.
Many thanks, I really appreciate the assistance!
Be well,
Zack
Hi Ann,
From Zack Brown, November 14, 2012
I've added my comments below.
Be well,
Zack
On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:54 AM, Ann Hutchinson Guest wrote:
Zack Brown
Zack, I've added my thoughts in blue.All the best, Ann---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Zack Brown
Date: Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:13 AM
Thanks for the reply, Ann, and the encouragement! I've included some responses/questions below.
Be well,Zack
On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Ann Hutchinson Guest wrote:
Here we go, Zack, I will try to reply by using red for my answers, embedded in your questions. So many of the Labanotation usages derive from situations where they were needed. It must be difficult to approach them just from a theoretical standpoint. I find your questions a challenge and enjoy trying to provide easy to follow answers. We do not get enough people asking questions and, indeed, challenging what has been established, so it is a good exercise, for which I thank you!Let me know what is not clear.Keep up your enquiring mind!AnnHi Ann,Thanks for your reply. The reason why I asked the original question is because I'm trying to understand all the different crosses, and those are the ones giving me the most difficulty. Maybe you could clear some of my questions up for me.Focal Point Cross ('Spatial Variations', p. 140-141): This key is a standard key, with a focal point symbol attached. As far as I can tell from the text, the 'up' direction is identical to the 'up' direction for the standard key; i.e. up is in the direction that opposes the force of gravity, and down is the direction that follows the force of gravity. You can take it as a rule that the line of gravity determines up and down unless the Body Key is used, for that the line of the spine determines up and down. Meanwhile, the 'forward' direction points always to the focal point. My questions are these:What exactly is the 'line of the spine'? There's always a curve to the spine, so I'm assuming it means the line between the center of the pelvis and the center of the neck. Is that right? Yes, when the torso is relatively straight. When curved, arched, the arms will take direction from the upper thorax, at 90 degrees to the lateral shoulder line. The legs will take direction from the center of the pelvis.
I see. Thanks, that makes it clear.
1) if the focal point rises up, relative to the stage, does the forward direction tilt in order to allow the performer to keep it as their focus? To my knowledge we have only dealt with situations where the focal point was a static point. A moving point, as for instance the light near the end of Balanchine's ballet Night Shadow, involved looking and pointing at the moving light. This was handled with an addressing indication, which in this case sufficed.2) And if so, what happens to the 90 degree relationship between 'forward' and 'up'?3) Or if the focal point is directly above the performer, then where is the forward direction?4) And if forward does not tilt to meet a rising focal point, then how does the focal point remain the focus of the performer's attention? These questions have not arisen.Very interesting!So, if I'm understanding you correctly, the focal point never moves while it is remains the focus. You are making a rule out of an application! In our experience the focal point may be a ritual fire, a royal presence (usually seated, hence static) etc. If a moving prop is needed as a focus, a horizontal 'addressing' bow is used. This is not a rule but a practical and appropriate solution.
I
understand. But if a certain behavior is 'undefined' in Labanotation,
that is the same as saying it's not allowed. If there's no clear way to
interpret a moving focal point, so as to make it clear how it affects
the relationship between 'front' and 'up', then that means that anyone
actually using the focal point cross may make different assumptions
about how it behaves in those conditions. And in that case their scores
won't be readable, because no one will be able to guess with confidence
at the assumptions they made when writing those scores.
So, as far as I'm concerned, if I come across an
element of Labanotation that's 'undefined', I have no choice but to tell
a student that it's against the rules to use that element in the
undefined way. Otherwise I'd be telling the student to do something that
no one else would be able to read, and that would be bad for them.
Also, if I'm understanding you right, the focal point remains on or near the ground, This is not a rule, it could be higher. so that the 'forward' it defines in the focal point cross of axes is always 90 degrees from the vertical line of gravity. Yes, this is right, but remember that level for limb gestures is taken from the Standard Cross.
If
as you say, the focal point (i.e. forward) could be higher, while
gestures take level from the standard cross (i.e. the gravitational
vertical), that means that the angle between front and up may not be 90
degrees. In that case, the symbol for 'forward high' would not be 45
degrees between the two cardinal directions, but somewhere in the
middle. And for Janos's big 15-degree system described in Spatial
Variations, pp. 220-225, the angles would not be 15 degrees but
something else.
Is that correct? Previously, I had thought that the
only crosses that could violate the '90 degrees between cardinal
directions' rule were the constant cross and the fixed points cross.
Are those two things safe to say? I understand your wish to pin things down, but you seem to be making rules that are not established in those terms. The notation system has choices and the notator must pick the one that best serves.
That's
as it should be. But the choices need to be clear; and their meaning
and significance need to be clear. Otherwise, no one can read the scores
that depend on them later, and the whole point of writing a score in
Labanotation would be lost.
Path Movement Cross I did not recognize these names! Movement Directions in Relation to the Path. But perhaps you are right and we need a short term. and Path Step Cross Step Direction in Relation to the Path. Or: Steps in Relation to the Direction of the Path. ('Spatial Variations', p. 144-145): These two keys, from examples 43b and 43k, are relative to a path being taken through the stage. I would not refer to a stage here, rather to a dancing area, such as a village square.'Dancing area' seems like a better term. Is it always the case with the two 'path' crosses, that the paths they relate to will be shown in a floor plan on the right of the staff? In actual practice the path is usually improvised. A floor plan would pin down a selected choice and this may not be desirable. Is the floor plan always required when these crosses (and for that matter, the line of dance cross as well) are used? No.
OK, I understand. Thanks for making that clear.
The path step cross is used for stepping only, while the path movement cross is identical, but is used for gesture as well. My questions regarding these crosses are these:1) Do they make the Line Of Dance cross obsolete, since they appear to be a more general form of the same idea? No, very different, I'll answer this in a moment.2) If the Path Step cross is only used for stepping, then how are gestures handled when that cross is in effect? Do gestures revert to the most recent cross, or to the Standard Cross? Gestures will use the Standard Cross, unless it is indicated that they follow the line of travel. It could be that leg gestures should follow the path (in preparation for steps) while the rest of the body does not. This would be indicated by the symbol for both legs and the key of 43k mentioned above.So, if I wanted to indicate that leg gestures should follow the path while the rest of the body did not, I'd use the legs body part symbol with the key from 43k - but where would that indication go? In the glossary? Or somewhere in or near the staff?The so-called Ballroom Key, the Line of Dance (LoD), functions in a special way, which is the outcome of the needs in traditional ballroom dancing, such as the English, Alex Moore technique and style. Step direction is taken from the Standard Cross. The LoD (also called the General Direction of Progression (GDP) is needed to keep track of orientation in relation to the room.The governing direction of travel is always counterclockwise. The path may be rectangular as it travels along the walls of the room. It may also become more circular, especially with experienced performers. The performers relate their front to the center of the room and also to the walls. As the Line of Dance turns the corner (at the end of one wall) this 1/4 turn left is indicated on the right of the notation staff. This re-orientation affects the performer's Front. Body gestures take direction and level from the Standard Cross.Thanks for that explanation of LoD. Oh good! I succeeded in being clear!
Yay! :-)
Split Body Cross, and the 'Body' Split Body Cross ('Floorwork, Basic Acrobatics', p. 24-25, 58-59):1) For the regular split body cross, is the 'up' direction the same as the standard cross? Yes, the usual Standard Cross is used.2) For both split body crosses (standard and body), does the split body apply to gestures also, or does it only apply to stepping? Yes, it applies to gestures as well. For the Body-Split-Body Key all gestures would follow the Body Key rules. The steps would follow the Standard usage.3) For both crosses, how are the two 'place' locations identified? See p. 58, section 9.3.I see. That section defines the two place locations used with the Split Body key as specifically related to the shoulders for the arms and pelvis for the legs. So there's no configuration of supports that would warrant a different set of place locations for the split body crosses.
OK, I understand. Thanks for making it clear.
Deviation From Path Cross (Spatial Variations, p. 30-31):1) This key appears to only be used with pins, to indicate a slight deviation. Is that correct? For gestures, pins show minor deviations from the standard path. (See LN Textbook 2005, p.396, 397.) Size of deviation can be shown when needed. When the line of the path is in an intermediate direction, statement of the direction of the appropriate deviation can be difficult, thus a key to change the reference to the path so that the path can be seen as though it is horizontal, thus establishing up and down in relation to it; this then allows all the other possible directions for deviations to fall into place. Whew! Is that clear?Not yet. I don't see how the other directions fall into place. What determines the direction of up/down? Or left/right? Up and down are taken from the line of gravity.Zack, you need to look at Deviations from the Path of a Gesture, LN text 2005, p. 295-6. The example given shows that a deviation up is away from gravity and that forward is not the direction of the movement (the direction of progression).If the path of my arm is from right middle to forward high, that defines an arc through space, between those two directions. The path is also at 45 degrees relative to a flat floor. So, if I want to indicate a directional deviation from that path, I would use the Deviation From Path cross with a pin, to indicate the direction of deviation. You have chosen a rather simple path that can be handled in the standard way, no need for a key. When the path is between intermediate points the direction of a deviation can be difficult to determine, it is for these cases that the Cross was developed. In your mind you pick up the desired path, place it in front of you, as in example 674a, and indicate the appropriate pin for the deviation. Note that the wording next to 674a should be: "The path in space notated at the left..."The question is, how do I interpret the pin, in order to find out what direction to deviate towards? Clearly the pin indicates whether it represents an upward, downward, left, right, or other direction. But that direction will be relative to the system of directions defined by the Deviation from Path cross of axes. So the real problem is to understand how that cross defines up/down, front/back, and left/right.Now, you've said that this cross changes the reference to the path so that the path can be seen as though it is horizontal. So, if I understand you correctly, that means that the starting point of the path defines 'backwards', and the ending point of the path defines 'forwards'.But that doesn't mean that 'up' is easy to determine. Once I have forwards and backwards, there are an infinite number of right-angled spokes that can come off of that line, all pointing in different directions. Imagine the spokes of a bicycle wheel.For the same reason that I need *both* up and front to define left and right in other crosses, I need *both* front/back and left/right to define 'up'. So far all I'm aware of is the forward/backward axis. Thus, 'up' is still undefined, as are left and right. I hope that my explanation above has solved your questions in the above four paragraphs. Whew!
OK, I read p. 395-396. It says that direction is taken from the standard cross of axes. So that does make that point clear.
Likewise, I think I understand what you mean when you say
"pick up the desired path, place it in front of you, as in example
674a, and indicate the appropriate pin for the deviation." The
significance of mentally putting the path in front of me, is the same as
if I were to put the standard cross of axes in the center of that path,
and interpreted the deviation relative to that. Is that correct?
Looking back over Spatial Variations p. 30-31, and
endnote 16 in that book, I also see that the deviation-from-path cross
is specifically intended to not depend on the standard cross for the
direction of deviation. Instead, as in examples 10af and 10ak, an upward
or downward deviation is indicated as being exactly perpendicular to
the path of movement, even if that movement involves a change of level.
That perpendicular deviation is the whole reason to use a special cross,
as opposed to relying on the standard analysis of deviations, given in
LN p. 395-396.
So, this leads me back to my original question. In
order for the up/down axis to be perpendicular to the path, we must
consider the line of the path to define forward/backward. But in that
case, we still do not have enough information to identify the up/down
axis.
Here is my best guess, though I don't see any
indication of it in the texts: for the deviation from path cross, the
up/down axis is taken as a line, perpendicular to the line of the path,
that is the most upward-aiming, relative to gravity. Is that correct?
2) It doesn't seem to ever be used outside the staff - it is always attached either by a horizontal or vertical bow, or presumably as a pre-sign. Is that correct? It relates only to the individual statement, not to the notation as a whole.3) It appears to only be used when following a path from a location represented by one direction symbol, to a location represented by another direction symbol; as opposed to a trace pattern. Is that correct? I don't understand this question. The gestural path needs to be indicated as starting at one point and ending at another.The question is: can this cross be used to modify the path of a trace pattern being drawn in the air by a body part? Or is it restricted to only modifying the path defined by two direction symbols? If the idea applies, then it could be used in other instances, as in adding a third dimension into otherwise flat design drawing.
Excellent!
So for example, in 'Shape, Design, Trace Patterns', p. 62-63, example
33c, a three-dimensional path is traced by the arm. If I want to show
several performers doing the identical tracing, but one performer
deviating, I take you to mean that I could use the deviation-from-path
cross to indicate that deviation in this example. Is that correct?
Many thanks for your assistance,
Zack
4) It seems that the 'forward' direction is the direction toward the location represented by the target direction symbol, wherever that might be. It could even be at an angle relative to the floor. In that case, how is the 'up' direction determined? If all I know is forward and back, there are an infinite number of perpendicular lines emanating from that axis. How do I know which of those is the 'up' direction? I'm sorry, I can't follow your para. 4).I restated the question in response to your answer to my para 1 above. The problem is how to identify what 'up' means when this cross is in effect.Many thanks, I really appreciate the assistance!Be well,ZackI hope you are able to clear up these questions for me. I don't see the answers anywhere in the books.Be well,ZackOn Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 12:37 PM, Ann Hutchinson Guest wrote:
Thank you, Zack, thank you Janos, I am finally having time to pick up on Zack's questions about keys.
Reading Zack's message it sounds as though someone got slap happy (drunk?) and started playing around inventing keys out of the blue. What is so interesting is to find out how the need for each key arose.
In some cases our standard descriptions just did not work. In others, the way the choreographer or teacher was explaining the movement had a different reference, one that did not exist in our notation system. For the movement in hand, that analysis made sense. Why could we not provide that possibility? I have wonderful memories of going into such examples with Maria Szentpal, one of these was the Split Body. That was the way people wanted to describe what was happening, why could we not provide that description? Did we have to force them into our standard analysis? Alas that Maria with her gifts is no longer with us, hers was an exceptional talent.
In Farandoles, or dances with lines of people dancing on improvised floor patterns around the available space (a field, perhaps?) what reference was there other than the direction of travel?
The Deviation from the Path (Spatial Variations, page 30, 31) is specifically related to gestures, to simplify the description - again derived from how people explain what they want. In many instances there is no need for such a description, and, indeed, unless one is writing sequences that beg for a special key, it is totally satisfactory to stick with the standard, well known descriptions.
The point of the Spatial Variations book was to cover the lesser known usages so that they are available to whoever might need them. I am still hoping to produce the last Advanced Labanotation book, No. 10, on similarly less known, subtle body variations.
I hope the above is helpful, please ask if you have further questions. And thank you, Janos, for your kind words.
Ann
Zack Brown
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